Jim Rickards and Alex Stanczyk, The Gold Chronicles June 2018
*The New Axis of Gold – How emerging market central banks are accumulating gold and what it means
*Conversation with the former head of the IMF, John Lipsky
*Why Russia buying gold for 38 consecutive months is a strategic move
*US is engaged in financial warfare with China, Russia, Iran, and North Korea
*How and why targets of US sanctions are working on alternatives to the US dollar system
*A game theory scenario on a Chinese/Russian controlled permissioned distributed ledger with a government issued token backed by physical gold
*Why some institutions are buying physical gold, changing from paper gold allocations to physical gold allocations
Listen to the original audio of the podcast here
Physical Gold Fund presents The Gold Chronicles with Jim Rickards and Alex Stanczyk offering insights and analysis about economics, geopolitics, global finance, and gold.
Alex: Hello, this is Alex Stanczyk, and welcome to another edition of The Gold Chronicles. This podcast is sponsored by our fund, Physical Gold Fund, and I have with me once again the excellent and brilliant Mr. Jim Rickards. Welcome, Jim.
Jim: Thanks, Alex. It’s great to be with you.
Alex: Among the topics we are going to cover today, we’ve discussed one a couple of times in the past. It is this idea that gold has been transferring from the west over to the east on a continual basis.
We talked about gold going through the refineries in Switzerland a number of years ago. It came to light that the gold in the delivery format was going into Swiss refineries, being melted down, and then recast into one-kilogram bars for the most part as it’s being shipped over to China as well as India.
In addition to that, you have a chart in front of you from one of our common friends and colleagues, Ronnie Stoeferle. Once a year he creates the In Gold We Trust report. It’s usually really good, and this year is no different. One of the interesting charts from that report indicates the increase of gold in reserves of central banks from emerging markets. Some of the numbers are noteworthy.
From 2006, when they were running about 4596 tons, gold holdings in emerging market central banks rose to 8755 tons in 2017. According to this chart, in just over ten years, we saw almost a 91% increase.
The one that really caught my attention was the Central Bank of Russia. They’ve been buying gold pretty much nonstop the past 38 months, and they’ve accumulated 683.1 tons during that time.
A comment from the World Gold Council says, “This commitment to growing gold reserves – a directive by authorities – shows no signs of abating and reinforces the view of gold as a strategic asset.”
As you know, our view from the Fund is that gold is a strategic asset and always has been, which is why we’ve chosen the jurisdictions we use. Consider the effect of that and where this is all going as far as emerging market central banks and what it means for the emerging monetary system.
Before I get to you, Jim, I’m going to read one quote from the deputy chairman of Russia’s central bank, Sergey Shvetsov. He said, “The major gold-producing nations are tired of an international gold price that is determined in a synthetic trading environment” – he’s talking about paper markets – “having little to do with the physical gold market.”
All that said, Jim, what are your thoughts on this, the new axis of gold?
Jim: First of all, you’re absolutely right about the data, and you made reference to this report, In Gold We Trust. You and I both know Ronnie Stoeferle and his partner, Mark Valek. They produce this once a year but spend a whole year working on it. They’re always gathering material, doing research, gathering interviews, talking to experts, etc.
It’s available online for free and is probably the single most closely studied gold report, even more so than what the World Gold Council puts out, so I would encourage all of our viewers to get a copy. Again, you can find it online and download it. You don’t have to print it out, but you can if you want to. It’s a couple of hundred pages, a heavy lift, but well worth it.
Alex, we’re analysts and students of this, but you’re right with all this data we’re talking about. You framed it as west to east, and that is true in the geographic sense. Where’s the gold coming from? A lot of it is coming out of private vaults or even the Bank of England vaults in London and moving east to Switzerland where it’s re-refined from the old gnarly 400-ounce bars into the shiny new one-kilogram bars, four-nines purity, 99.99% pure gold. From there, it’s off to China and the other countries we mentioned.
The flow is west to east, but by itself, saying west to east does not have a lot of explanatory power. It’s correct as a geographic direction and a convenient way to think about it, but what’s behind it? What’s really going on?
We have to talk about what I call the new axis of gold. What is this? It is basically a set of countries, secondary powers and tertiary powers who are allies, trading partners, and people in the same regional configuration whether it’s central Asia or eastern or central Europe, etc., who are looking for ways out of the dollar payment system.
Let’s be clear, though. The dollar is still boss right now. I don’t dispute that.
I just got back from Hong Kong where I spent an hour one-on-one with the former head of the IMF on a panel. This was John Lipsky who was the head of the IMF before Christine Lagarde. He had a long career at the IMF, a Wall Street economist, a PhD economist from Stanford University – really at the pinnacle of the global monetary lead.
If you asked me, “Who knows the most about the system? Not an analyst or student or commentator, but actually in a seat, in a policy-making position. Name the people, Jim, who you think are the super elite,” it would be a short list. You might start with Christine Lagarde and Jay Powell, but John Lipsky would be top five.
Regarding the panel we were on, John and I are friends, so before the panel, we took a couple of chairs, pulled them to one side, sat down, and had a one-hour one-on-one. What a privilege to be able to talk to the head of the IMF about the stuff we’re talking about. It’s one thing to talk about SDRs in theory, the special drawing rights, the IMF world money, and links to gold -there’s a lot going on – but again, this gives us some rare insights.
With that said, what’s going on with Russia in particular? You’re absolutely right, they’ve been buying gold all along, consistently, just like clockwork. Some months it might be nine tons, other months it’s 16 tons, but it’s never zero. They just keep accumulating it.
Remember, in late 2014, the price of oil collapsed. It went down through all of 2015 and didn’t really bottom until 2016. When I say collapsed, it went from $100 a barrel to as low as about $22 a barrel. It’s back up since then and today is over $60 a barrel, but that was a huge collapse.
We all know that Russia is an oil-dependent economy, so it’s like saying, “I’m going to cut your paycheck by two-thirds.” That’s what happened to Russia in terms of their reserves, but they still had a lot of obligations and needed that foreign exchange. They needed those dollars to basically monetize payments. If your corporations borrowed in dollars and were earning money in rubles, you’d have to go to the central bank, hand in your rubles, and get dollars to pay your debts.
Well, that was a drain on the hard currency. Using round numbers, Russian reserves went from approximately $500 billion to $300 billion in a period of about a year and a half. That’s a 40% decline, but they never stopped buying gold.
You would think, “Gee, my reserves are disappearing. I have to economize or stop,” but they never stopped buying gold. They sold dollars, treasury obligations, Ginnie Maes, euros, European sovereign debt; they sold whatever they needed to sell, but they never stopped buying gold. This was with Elvira Nabiullina as the head of the Central Bank of Russia.
That says something very powerful about Russia’s view of gold, which is they made it a national priority even in distress. It’s one thing in good times when you’re adding reserves to say, “I’m going to allocate something to gold.” Individuals can do that. But when you’re losing reserves and you still buy gold, that tells you what your priorities are.
Russia is fairly transparent, believe it or not. You can look at the Central Bank of Russia website, and we also have good geological information and mining output. Their intentions may be opaque – although I don’t think so – but we can see about their gold.
We know the story with China – they never stopped buying – but they are a lot less transparent. We do know that they officially had 600 tons, but how much gold they might have piled up on the side could easily be 1000 or 2000 tons more, so we’ll see about that.
We know that Iran has some gold smuggled in from Turkey and Dubai.
Turkey has acquired a lot of gold but is also a major trans-shipment point. There’s a lot of gold coming from our friends in Switzerland, flying to Istanbul, being loaded on a different plane, and then going to Tehran.
The U.S. clamped down on that a couple of years ago, although I’m not sure Turkey cares that much today. There was a time when Turkey was a little more attentive to U.S. requirements, and they did clamp down on it, but prior to that, Turkey was a major trans-shipment point for gold west to east, Switzerland to Tehran. And then Turkey itself has been acquiring gold.
Another big acquirer is Kazakhstan in central Asia on the border with Russia.
What’s interesting is that beginning in the late 1990s until 2010, more specifically 1999 to 2010, central banks were net sellers of gold – so much so that they actually came up with the CBGA, Central Bank Gold Agreement, which is also known as the Washington Agreement. This was to limit and allocate their sales, because they were worried they were selling so much gold, they were going to depress the price on the world market. That’s no longer a worry. That agreement is still in force, but it’s a dead letter, because 2010 was the year that central banks flipped from being net sellers to net buyers.
Some of these central banks had been buying all along, but in the aggregate, even as China and Russia was buying, Switzerland was selling. Switzerland sold 1000 tons, and the U.K. sold well over half of their gold reserves in the late 1990s.
The other interesting thing to me is that the last time the U.S. had any significant gold sales was 1980. We run around the world telling everyone else, “You have to sell your gold,” but we’re not selling any of ours.
Who were the big sellers after 1980? We had the U.K. at about 400 tons, Switzerland at 1000 tons, the IMF at 700 tons, and some of the other central banks as well. These are big amounts. Interestingly, people like Germany, France, and Italy never sold any or at least not a significant amount.
The gold was going out, but there were always buyers. That’s changed now. Central banks have stopped selling gold. I don’t know of any major central banks selling any gold. I can give you ten central banks that are buying a lot of gold, so net, that demand is there.
In terms of mining output, we’ve flat-lined. I don’t want to say that we have peak gold, because I’m not a geologist. I study and follow it, but without being a geologist, at least what I hear is that miners are having a very hard time finding new gold.
They’re re-opening some mines that were shut in 2013 when the price collapsed, so they know the reserves are there. They’re just digging it up at an attractive price, but they’re not making new finds or discovering large new gold deposits, so output is kind of flat.
When you have flat output and rising demand, we all know what that does to the price leaving aside manipulation and some of the other things we’ve talked about. What’s going on is strategic. This is not simply, “Oh, I want to diversity my portfolio. I think gold is going up.” It’s more than that; this is strategic.
I mentioned king dollar. Today, the U.S. dollar is 60% of global reserves, 80% of global payments, and over 90% of oil payments. When you buy or sell oil, you do it in dollars, so that’s in a dominant position.
I talked to Ben Bernanke, John Lipsky, and Tim Geithner about this one-on-one. They don’t see a problem. They think, “Yes, the dollar is the king. It’s always going to be the king.”
They use concepts that we hear about in Silicon Valley like sticky eyeballs or whatever, i.e., once you attract people to your website, they don’t go away, or once something becomes an embedded advantage, it’s very hard to disrupt. There’s some truth in that in marketing and sales. It is good to have an embedded advantage and barriers to entry, but they’re not always permanent or always unassailable.
Here’s the point, really: The U.S. is using this advantage in a geopolitical context. We are in several wars. The United States right now today is in a financial war with Iran, Russia, North Korea, and we’re getting close to an outright trade war with China that may turn into a financial war.
We’re doing this through sanctions to different degrees. I would say on a scale of ten, China is about a five right now, Russia is maybe a six or a seven, North Korea is a nine, and they’re trying to make Iran a ten.
These sanctions work. When we tell any country, “You cannot use the dollar payment system; you can’t use SWIFT to move euros around; you can sell oil but you can’t get paid for it at least not in a currency that anybody wants; your officials can’t buy plane tickets; if you go to Geneva, your credit cards don’t work; your institutions cannot trade or do business; anybody in Europe that does business with any of your institutions can’t do business with in the United States,” that’s the secondary boycott.
These things are extreme, and they work. The problem is that the rest of the world is getting a little bit tired of it.
I describe it as the schoolyard bully. When I was in elementary school, there was always a bully in the class. One day, he would go and beat up one little kid, and that could be Russia with the U.S. as the bully in this metaphor. The next day, he beats up another little kid, and that could be China. Next, he beats up another little kid, which is Iran.
In the real world, all the victims get together, form a gang, and beat up the bully. They kick his butt one of these days.
That’s what’s happening now. The victims or the targets of U.S. sanctions are putting their heads together, putting their resources together, and saying, “How do we get out from under this dollar payment system? We know the U.S. controls it and uses it very aggressively. We know they can sanction us, they can hurt us. We get that, so how do we get out from under it?”
This is where Russia, China, Iran, Turkey, North Korea – and I dare say you’ll see Brazil, Venezuela, and others joining in – are saying, “What’s the alternative to the dollar payment system?”
Here’s how it’s shaping up. Part of it will be a cryptocurrency. I’m not talking about bitcoin, so don’t run out and buy bitcoin. I really don’t like bitcoin, but I understand distributed ledger technology, which is the so-called blockchain.
They could create an encrypted distributed ledger that would be run by, let’s say, Russia and China, but participants would be anybody they wanted to let in. It would be what’s called a permissioned system as opposed to a completely open permissionless system, which is what bitcoin is.
Russia and China would say, “We just set up a new payment system. We call it the PutinCoin or the XICoin.” Maybe they’ll call it the WorldCoin. They can call it whatever they want. “We just set up a new payment system. We have a token, and we say that our token is worth one-whatever of an ounce of gold.”
It doesn’t matter; they can set up any amount of gold they want. The point is, there is now an alternative to the dollar. “We’re going to start selling our balance of payments in our new token, in our new WorldCoin, on this distributed ledger.”
There would be a system where Iran ships oil to China, China ships coal to North Korea, North Korea ships weapons to Iran, Russia ships oil to China, China does infrastructure investments in Russia, and everyone takes a vacation in Turkey because it’s a beautiful country. All these payments would be flying around, and they wouldn’t have to settle them up in real time.
The central bank would have to settle them up with the commercial banks in the country and the merchant acquirers for credit cards and things like that, but the countries wouldn’t have to settle them up. They could just kind of run a tab. It’s like being at a bar and telling the bartender, “Run a tab. I’ll settle up at the end of the evening.”
Periodically – monthly, quarterly, annually, whatever tempo you want – these countries through their central banks and finance ministries could say, “I owe you a billion WorldCoins, or you owe me half a billion WorldCoins,” or whatever, and they could settle that in gold. Just put the gold on a plane, fly it from point A to point B, and it’s done.
Where is the dollar in this scenario? It doesn’t exist. There is no dollar in this scenario. You create a new currency out of nothing; it’s just digital. You back it with gold, but you don’t have to settle every payment in gold. Just keep a tab, a distributed ledger, run a balance of payments, and settle up periodically using gold.
Remember, when you’re settling on net, you don’t need all that much gold. You need a lot, but you’re not sending gross gold shipments every time you invest or buy or sell from another country. Your credits offset your debits, and you settle up on a net basis.
I see this system evolving. This is not science fiction. This is not, “Oh, it’s coming in ten years, and here’s what I think is going to happen.” These pieces are being put in place right now. You quoted the Russian finance minister or one of the senior Russian officials on the subject saying, “We don’t like the paper gold market.” Okay, but they’re also working on cryptocurrencies.
The cryptocurrency groupies get all spun up and say, “This proves bitcoin is valuable.” No, it doesn’t. I don’t think bitcoin has any real value, but an encrypted digital currency sponsored by Russia or China and backed by gold is the real deal. That can work. I see all these pieces being put in place.
Coming back to my conversation in Hong Kong with John Lipsky, I raised a lot of these issues with him. Look, these guys are skeptical. They understand it, they’re smart enough to get it, of course, but they tend to think that the dollar’s embedded advantage that is true today will always be there.
I make the point of what’s sometimes called the global monetary reset, the GMR or whatever you want to call it. The world went off the gold standard to fight World War I. We also had one in 1944 towards the end of World War II when we needed to come up with a new system, and they came up with the Bretton Woods system. We had one in 1971 when President Nixon suspended the redemption of dollars into gold. It took a couple of years to play out but tore up the old system.
Two of those, in 1914 and 1971, ended the old system but did not replace it with anything. They just went with a kind of chaotic system. In the 1920s and 1930s, we had a hybrid gold standard, and in the 1980s, 1990s, and 2000s, we had floating exchange rates. It’s definitely incoherent. This is what Bernanke and John Lipsky told me: We have an incoherent system.
First of all, what’s the tempo? I just gave you three global monetary resets in the past 105 years. Doing the math, that’s one every 35 or 36 years. They don’t happen every day or every ten years. It’s not like a business cycle or even a financial panic. It’s a big deal, but they do happen. It’s been 47 years since the last one, so if they happen every 35 years or so, we’re probably overdue.
The system is unstable for the reasons I mentioned. History teaches that these things do happen every 30 or 40 years, and it won’t take much to topple the dollar, at which point the new system will roll out. It may not be a strict gold standard, but gold absolutely plays a role, and we see that with these gold acquisitions you cited.
Alex: The next area we want to talk about is what we’re seeing from our perspective. When I say “our,” I mean myself and our team with the Fund. We’ve had a team over in Dubai off and on, basically every other week for about the last five months running. In the institutional space we’ve been talking to over there, we’re starting to see a big interest in getting out of what we’ve termed and discussed many times as paper gold.
That would be anything from perhaps some kind of ETF where they don’t have or can’t take delivery of gold, etc. to a situation where they want to make sure they have physical gold. They want to know for a fact that there’s physical gold backing it up that they can take delivery of away from the whole paper gold scenario.
I ran across an interesting article stating that the Swiss government pension fund – Switzerland’s AHV/AVS fund – has decided to diversify into physical gold bars. They have a fund that’s a €30.5 billion pension portfolio. They’re shifting their investment strategy where they only previously invested in gold via what they call swaps, and now they’re requiring as part of their governance that they’re buying actual physical gold from here on out.
Do you have any thoughts about this? Do you think this is the beginning of a shift or trend in this direction, or do you have any experience with it?
Jim: I do, and yes, we may be in the early stages of this. Bear in mind that institutional allocations to gold are so low that any increase – even a small increase – is a big deal in terms of the demand for gold. Institutions have about 1.5% to 2% allocation of gold. That’s tiny. How much do you have in treasury builds? It might be 20%. How much do you have in stocks? 30% or 40%, maybe 60% depending on the fund. How much do you have in gold?
By the way, when I say 1.5% average, that’s an average. For most people, the answer is zero, and then there are a couple of 5% people. When you average the handful of people with a bunch of zeroes, you get an average of 1.5%, but it’s not like every institution has 1.5% gold. Most institutions have zero, some have a little more, and the average is 1.5%.
My point being, if the average only went to 3% – it doubled – that would be huge. It doesn’t have to go to 20%. There’s not enough gold in the world – and there never will be at anywhere near current prices – to satisfy an increase in the allocation even up to the 10% level, forget about 5%.
What you point to, Alex, is very significant. Even a small change at the margin could have a huge impact in the supply and demand for physical gold.
My favorite story in this respect involves my friend Kyle Bass, who runs Hayman Capital. That’s his very successful hedge fund. He’s a great guy. We have co-lectured at Texas A&M, and I believe he still is on the board of trustees of UTIMCO, the University of Texas Investment Management Company. It’s the pension trustee for the professors’ and employees’ pensions of the Texas state university system.
Some years ago, he was insisting they invest in gold. They said, “Okay, it makes sense, we hear you.” And he said, “I want physical gold. I don’t want GLD, ETF, I don’t want unallocated forward contracts from J. P. Morgan; I want physical gold. I want it in our name, and I want it fully allocated.” So, he bought it from HSBC. It was a lot, like $500 million worth of gold.
Then he took it a step further. That’s why he’s such a great investor. He’s very diligent. He said, “I want to see the gold. I want to see it segregated. I want to know it’s ours, it belongs to Texas.” HSBC, the vault operator, said, “You’re really being a pain in the neck here.” He replied, “No, I insist. It’s my due diligence, my fiduciary duty,” so they said okay.
They let him into the vault. He goes in and says, “All right, where’s my gold?” They’re like, “Well, there’s some over there, there are a couple of bars on the shelf over there, and we think we have some…” He said, “No. I want my bars in one place, serial numbers, manifests.”
Alex, you and I have been in the vaults with the Physical Gold Fund on more than one occasion, and that’s exactly the way it is. That gold is not only allocated in the legal sense; it’s physically segregated in a separate case. The case is sealed, so before you even open it, you have to break the seal. You need a crowbar to open the case, because it’s a wooden case. Auditors are standing by with the manifest with all the bar numbers on it. You open the case, look at the bar number, look at the manifest, and say, “Check.” You go down every single bar .
Kyle Bass wanted something similar for Texas, but they said, “All right, you’re just being a pain.” He went away, came back, and the second time, they had it the way he wanted. I don’t know if it was in cases, but he said all of their gold was in one place and the numbers checked out.
That’s a very large institution, one of the largest institutional investors in the world, and he’s one of the most prominent investors in the world. HSBC is one of the biggest banks in the world, and that’s what he had to go through to make sure his gold was really there.
As I said, I’ve been in the vaults with Physical Gold Fund. I can raise my hand and say that gold is there because I’ve seen it and counted it.
That is absolutely what institutions should do. The reason is that you have to ask yourself, “Why am I buying gold in the first place? Because it’s shiny and pretty?” Well, it is shiny and pretty, but that’s not why you’re buying it. You could say, “It’s for diversification.” Yes, but there are a lot of ways to diversify. That’s not the main reason you’re buying it.
The main reason you’re buying it is twofold:
- It’s a kind of insurance.
It’s catastrophe insurance. If everything falls apart, markets are crashing, we have a 2008-type scenario but worse – which we will, because you can see that coming – gold might be the only asset or one of very few that retains value.
- You’re not going to be able to get gold.
If you like reason number one, when this crisis unfolds, you’re not going to be able to get the gold.
A lot of people say, “I hear you, Jim, but call me when the crisis starts, and I’ll go get some gold.” No, you’re not going to be able to get it. Dealers are not going to return your phone calls. It’s all going to be spoken for. There will be no sellers, there will be a huge list of buyers, and the price will be skyrocketing. The price won’t matter to the person who doesn’t have it; they’re not going to be able to get it at any price, because it’s all going to be spoken for.
Get it now while you can at attractive valuations, because it’s going to be scarce, very hard to get, and very expensive when the time comes.
We’ve covered that ground before. Think about it. The time you want your gold the most is when conditions are going to be the worst. Do you want a paper contract that’s going to be reneged? Do you want an unallocated gold forward from J.P. Morgan when what you’re actually going to get is a notice, probably by e-mail, saying, “Your contract has been terminated as of the close of yesterday. We’ve wired your profits to the account. Thank you very much”?
You’re going to think, “No. I didn’t want it for yesterday’s profits; I want it for today’s profits, tomorrow’s profits. It’s going up hundreds of dollars an ounce every day, every hour.” They’re going to say, “Sorry. We’re not stealing your money. Here are your profits, but you’re not in this gold anymore.” That’s just because they don’t have enough gold to satisfy physical delivery on all those contracts, so they need to tear them up and send you a check, because they don’t have the gold.
That’s the world where you really want the gold. Why would you want a contract? Why would you want a COMEX future or a GLD ETF or a non-allocated contract with a London Bullion Market Association bank? You want the physical gold, and you’re not going to be able to get it at that time.
Yes, you want physical, and don’t put it in the bank. Banks are the easiest place for governments to come knocking, and they’ll be the first places to shut down. In the next crisis, they’re going to shut down the banks. Not permanently but temporarily until they work out some kind of solution, because they’re certainly not ready.
I mentioned John Lipsky and Ben Bernanke. John Lipsky was head of the IMF, and Ben Bernanke was chairman of the Fed. I’ve also spoken to Tim Geithner, former Secretary of the Treasury and President of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York. In addition, I’ve talked to a fellow who’s less well-known. His name is David Dollar (interesting last name; it’s like Dr. Pain). David Dollar was the U.S. Treasury’s ambassador of the dollar to Beijing with an office in the U.S. embassy in Beijing. He was on point in terms of treasury relations with China involving anything about the dollar and treasury securities for them.
These were all private conversations with a former chairman of the Fed, a U.S. dollar emissary to China, a former treasury secretary, and a former head of the IMF. None of them see the scenario we’re talking about coming. They understand it theoretically, but they don’t see it coming, which should come as no surprise. Go back and look at what Ben Bernanke said in March 2007. This was literally months away from the beginning of the biggest financial crisis since The Great Depression, and he was on record in the FOMC minutes saying, “This will blow over.”
Because there were some indications that mortgage defaults were picking up and the subprime mortgages weren’t performing well, he said, “Yes, whatever, but it’ll blow over. We can handle it. It’s not out of control.” He was dead wrong.
The elites never see this stuff coming. They’re powerful, they’re smart, and they’re important, but they don’t think outside the box. They’re in a thought bubble with other elites, and they don’t see these kinds of things coming. That’s exactly what happened in 2007 going into 2008, and it’s exactly what’s going to happen the next time.
They don’t see it coming, which means they’re not ready for it, which means that rather than proactively come up with a new monetary system in a Bretton Woods type of format, they’re just going to walk into a buzz-saw and have to react. But guess who is being proactive? Russia, China, Iran, and Turkey – this new axis of gold.
Whether it’s western elites reacting in a mad scramble going to gold to restore confidence or eastern elites – Russia and China in particular – being proactive and setting up a new system also backed by gold, all roads point to gold.
Alex: Yes, I totally agree.
That about does it for today since we’re out of time. If you want to go back and hear any of our previous podcasts, you can do so at PhysicalGoldFund.com/podcasts. Jim and I have been doing this for three or four years now, so there’s a massive archive of really good information and material in there that we encourage you to check out.
Jim, thanks once again for your time. It’s been a great discussion, and I look forward to getting together with you again next time.
Jim: Thank you, Alex. I look forward to it.
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